Welcome back to the wide world of Roshar! As we examine the first set of Interludes, our scope once again widens to include parts of the world we haven’t observed, at least recently: the far eastern coast of New Natanatan, the western slopes of the Horneater Peaks, and a chasm near the center of the Shattered Plains. All three center on the aftereffects of the Everstorm.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There’s no specific Cosmere discussion in this week’s post, though we can’t promise what will be in the comments. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Puuli, Ellista, Venli
WHERE: Puuli—New Natanatan. Ellista—Jokasha Monastery, on the western slopes of the Horneater Peaks. Venli—The Shattered Plains.
WHEN: All of these interludes are flashbacks, in regards to the timeline of the novel so far. Puuli’s takes place one day before the main events of Oathbringer begin (1173.10.10.4), and Venli’s takes places two days after the main events begin (1174.1.1.2). Ellista’s little chapter happens the same day that Shallan “performs” The Girl Who Looked Up for Pattern (1174.1.4.3).
The day after the first Everstorm, Puuli gathers wood from the wreckage and ponders the words of his Grandfather, who told him to watch for destroyers coming from the Origin on the darkest of nights.
At the Jokasha Monastery, Ellista just wants to find a nice quiet place to read her book. When she finally manages it, she’s interrupted by another ardent with questions about her translation of the Dawnchant.
Venli is hunting in the chasms of the Shattered Plains for her sister Eshonai on the command of Ulim, the Voidspren. However, she discovers that her sister is considerably less alive than she’d expected.
Threshold of the storm
Title: The Rhythm of the Lost
A: It’s worth noting here that in the Interludes, the chapter title is always the name of the POV character, except for the Interludes that make up the running novella. In Oathbringer, we can now observe that this will be Venli’s story, similar to Szeth’s story in The Way of Kings and Eshonai’s in Words of Radiance. If I recall correctly, it always concludes with one or two scenes in Part 5, right?
Heralds
Puuli: Chanarach
Patron of the Dustbringers She represents the role of Guard, and is associated with the number chach, the essence Spark, and the divine attributes of Brave and Obedient.
A: I’m going with Guard, Obedient, and possibly Spark and Dustbringer here. Puuli has been watching, and he’s been obediently tending the flame in the lighthouse to guard the ships, but he’s also a little too delighted in the destruction. That was a little creepy.
Ellista: Pailah holds the role of Scholar, and is associated with the essence pulp, and the attributes Learned and Giving. She is patron of the Order of Truthwatchers.
A: The Scholar is pretty obvious, as is Learned, for Ellista. I’m not sure there’s much else to note, is there? Oh, wait… pulp. Pulp fiction. Oh, please, tell me they didn’t do that on purpose! (But of course they did. There are no coincidences.)
Venli: Battar is the Counselor, with the essence Tallow, and the attributes Wisdom and Care. She is patron of the Order of Elsecallers.
A: This is a little harder. Venli refers to Eshonai several times in terms we could easily link to Wisdom and the role of Counselor. They don’t seem to apply much to Venli just yet, though. Given that we’re almost sure the spren Timbre will make Venli a Willshaper, I’m a little surprised not to see Kalak here. Maybe that will come later?
Icon
Like the titles, most Interludes use the same icon. It’s got that “Double Eye of the Almighty” symbol that demonstrates Surgebinding in the front cover of TWoK, with the five swords going through it. I’ve never been entirely sure of all the symbolism here, but in practical terms, it’s mostly used for Interludes. Sometimes it’s also on chapters where there are so many things going on that it’s impossible to pick a single character as the primary. The exception, as always, is the running novella.
L: The icon used for Venli’s chapter here is similar to but not quite the same as that used for Eshonai’s POV chapters in WoR. Rather than standing on a cliff in armor looking at a storm, this one is standing on a cliff—facing the other direction—and has what appears to be a spren hovering above her hand.
A: In the Words of Radiance reread, we called Eshonai’s icon “The Listener.” Does that mean we should call Venli’s “The Singer”?
Stories & Songs
Time to add to our running tally of Listener Rhythms—Curiosity, Awe, Peace, Pleading, Skepticism, Appreciation, Anxiety, Consolation, Praise, Reprimand, Mourning, Lost. Rhythm of the Terrors, Craving, Command, Fury, Satisfaction, Derision, Spite
Had the time finally come, that his grandfather had warned of? The time of changes, when the men from the hidden island of the Origin at last came to reclaim Natanan?
They’ll come with Light in their pockets, Grandfather had said. They’ll come to destroy, but you should watch for them anyway. Because they’ll come from the Origin. The sailors lost on an infinite sea. You keep that fire high at night, Puuli. You burn it bright until the day they come.
They’ll arrive when the night is darkest.
Buy the Book
Oathbringer
L: I really wonder about this. It makes me think that this whole thing with Odium is just a presage for the REAL storm coming from the Origin—that there might be an even bigger Evil coming down the line. Maybe this will be what the heroes face in the back five—perhaps the first five books are the fight against Odium, and they win—only to discover something even worse. Which they then have to team up with the Listeners/Fused to survive, of course… /end crackpot theory
A: Well, that’s a frightening thought. Makes a certain amount of sense, because there has to be something different going on in the back five, but… Yikes! That bit about coming “with Light in their pockets” sounds a little like it could just be Knights Radiant with Stormlight, but you’ve just convinced me that it’s probably not. I keep trying to guess, but this is likely our first hint of something yet to come.
At the top, he left out an offering of fruit for Kelek, the Herald who lived in the storm.
L: He’s talking about Kalak, Herald of the Almighty, Patron of the Willshapers. But here’s where I’m confused. Puuli believes that Kelek lives in the storm… which makes sense considering how closely tied the Almighty was to the Stormfather, I suppose. But… in that case, shouldn’t it be the Willshapers who are bonded to the storm? Not the Bondsmiths? Maybe this is just a case of forgotten knowledge and things being attributed to the wrong Heralds over time.
A: I found this interesting, too, but I think it just shows how different peoples understand cosmology in different ways. Not long ago, we were talking about how Shallan thought of the image of Cultivation as “pagan symbols,” and we’ve run into that same idea elsewhere. Given how much information we get directly from the Stormfather, I’m pretty sure Puuli’s people are wrong to identify Kalak with the storm, but the Alethi are also wrong to claim that acknowledging Cultivation’s power is heresy. I think that’s one of the things I love about the Interludes—it reminds us that this world isn’t homogeneous in its beliefs.
“This in-between, weird language is where people started using the Dawnchant script to phonetically transcribe their own language. … In this scrap we have one of the earliest emergence of the proto-Thaylo-Vorin glyphic radicals, and here is one showing a more intermediate Thaylen form.
L: Gotta admit, I’m fascinated by languages and how they evolve, so this is really cool to me. It sort of reminds me of Chinese/Japanese, and how the Japanese took the Chinese symbols combined them with their own phonetic versions of simplified “glyphs,” as Ellista would say. There are also shades of Latin here, in that we’re looking at a “unified scholar’s written language” which was used and understood even when the spoken language of the culture was different.
A: Philology is a fascinating subject, and I love that it’s become an integral part of the worldbuilding. I’m also pleased to see Navani’s work with Dalinar’s visions bearing fruit. I know it’s going to be used in harmful ways, but I have some hope that there will be more good to come.
The old songs spoke of days when humans had hacked apart listener corpses, searching for gemhearts.
L: I can see why they’d be so hesitant to trust humans. Ugh.
A: What struck me was the casual confirmation that yes, the Parsh do have gemhearts, and the humans knew that in the past. Have they just forgotten, or are these gemhearts not all that useful, or what? My best guess is that for some reason, the humans forgot altogether; otherwise, I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t make a practice of removing the gemhearts from their slaves when they die, even if they aren’t extremely useful. (If they were really useful, of course, someone would decided to raise parshmen just for the gemhearts. This makes me grateful that they didn’t know about it, for whatever reason. Slavery is bad enough.) That would, of course, carry over into the War of Reckoning, if they knew about it. I wonder why they forgot?
“Our ancestors?” Demid said. “What do they have to do with this?”
“Everything,” Ulim replied, “seeing as they’re the ones in charge.”
L: Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuun!
A: Merely the first in the series of terrible revelations about Rosharan history….
Bruised & Broken
The good of her people had always been secondary to Venli…
L: UGH. I know that she gets better, but this really makes me hate her. All of this death and destruction, and for what? A selfish desire for power.
A: Hah! I actually love this line, because it means I was right about her all through Words of Radiance. She really was selfish and power-hungry the whole time. It’s hard to believe, given how we (rightly) felt about her at this point, that she’s getting her own redemption arc. She needs some serious redemption, too; in direct opposition to her people’s decisions for centuries, she decided to try to bring back the forms of power and all they entailed. They might have come back without her help, but the fact that she chose to pursue it remains a condemnation.
Eshonai looked exhausted. In fact, she wasn’t moving.
L: ::sniff::
A: ::sniff::
You were the voice of reason, Venli thought. You were the one who argued with me. You… you were supposed to keep me grounded.
What do I do without you?
L: And so begins Venli’s character arc.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“A particular patron of mine has a strict deadline upon [this translation of the Dawnchant]’s delivery.”
L: ::narrows eyes:: I’m suspicious of this.
A: Yes. Almost certainly Taravangian, with his plan for simultaneous “discoveries” of the most damaging aspects of lost history.
Flora & Fauna
L: The Everstorm doesn’t count as Flora or Fauna, but it IS a natural (sort of) occurrence, so I’m putting discussion regarding it here.
“Two data points to make a coincidence, three to make a sequence. The Everstorm travels at a consistent speed, unlike the highstorm.”
A: Works for me. What I want to know is why this is so significant. It obviously is, but why?
Places & Peoples
Here, one of the foreigner captains—with long eyebrows and tan skin, rather than the proper blue skin—was trying to make sense of her ruined ship.
A: We’ve talked before about how the Horneaters and Herdazians have Parshendi blood, so obviously cross-race mating is viable. Here’s our evidence that Aimians and humans were also able to mate, as the people of Natanatan have Aimian blood.
Here, at the central home for the Devotary of the Mind, she was supposed to be able to just read.
L: We don’t really know a whole lot about the inner workings of the ardentia, so this little snippet interests me. From this I would assume that they have several different Devotaries—areas of study?
A: We’ve picked up little snippets about the devotaries along the way, but we don’t know much about them. There doesn’t seem to be a standard naming protocol: for example, Shallan belongs to the Devotary of Purity, and Dalinar to the Devotary of Talenelat. We’ve also heard of Denial, Insight, Sincerity, and here The Mind. As near as I can tell, they each have goals or ideals that they follow, and overall they’re responsible to teach people morality—but not to enforce it. It seems that everyone in Vorinism follows some devotary, not just the ardents. I’ve never been able to tell that it makes much difference, though.
For what it’s worth, I like the Devotary of the Mind. It seems to encourage reading of all genres, not merely scholarship. Between that and not having to bother with her hair, I think Ellista’s onto something here.
“I shall be away, to the Shattered Plains, and you shall not again suffer the torment of my presence.”
L: I find this interesting to note because it gives a pretty clear indication that this novel she’s reading is modern. The war on the Shattered Plains is a fairly recent development, so this book must have been written in the past six years, since the war began. Also interesting to note that Urv calls the book an “Alethi epic.” They’ve got an interesting definition of epic…
A: Epic romance! Wheeee! Or something.
Also, Ellista specifically notes that Urv, the ardent who seeks her out, is Siln; I had to go look that up. Silnasen turns out to be a city in Jah Keved which is not ethnically Veden. They seem to be a very pragmatic people, given that their “battles” tend to involve a lot of boasting and posturing, and very little actual fighting; that would be wasteful of perfectly good hunters. I’m not sure if Ellista is implying that Urv is less boastful than most Siln ardents, or just less obnoxious in general.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
L: I just have to take a moment to appreciate the comic buildup of Ellista’s chapter. We’re made to believe for the whole beginning that she’s looking for a place to get serious work done—and then it’s revealed that she just wants a place to read what’s essentially a trashy romance novel. Well played, Sanderson. Well played.
A: Absolutely. The first quote from her book was a complete stunner.
L: (Also, the language used in the in-world novel is very good, and immediately reminded me of Jane Austen.) Ellista talking to the book is fantastic, too. (Not that I’ve ever done that. Nope. Never. Not at all. ::sits on book::)
A: (Anyone who has ever seen the beta comments might just suspect that Sanderson was poking a little fun at us.)
“Brightlord Vadam? You little whore!”
L: I laughed aloud here.
A: You were not alone.
“What was that you were studying?” he asked.
“Important works,” Ellista said, then sat on the book.
L: She’s adorable.
“She is elevated to courtly attention and has to choose between a strapping naval officer, a Thaylen
bakerbanker, and the King’s Wit.”
L: Oh NOOOOOOOO. ::can’t help imagining Hoid in a book like this and the absolute havoc he’d wreak on everyone::
A: Which… is probably exactly what’s intended, given that as you pointed out, this is a contemporary novel. Clearly the in-world author doesn’t know Hoid at all. (Or… perhaps the author knows Hoid quite well? Either one works, depending on the author’s intent!)
I must quote the next lines, just in case anyone missed the cut text:
“Wait. There are three different men this time?”
“Sequels always have to be bigger,” he said.
Lol.
Weighty Words
L: Putting this one here, since it has to do with Plate:
“Plate looks completely drained. Broken along the back, I see. Well, it’s said to regrow on its own, even now that is it separated from its master from so long ago.”
L: Proof (as if we needed it) that the Plate is somehow organic, like the Blades are.
“Your sister,” Ulim said, “didn’t undergo the transformation properly. She resisted, and we’d have eventually lost her.”
L: That’s cool to know that even if you give in and bond the Voidspren, there’s still a chance of redemption, of coming back.
A: I’m also happy to know that Eshonai would have escaped the Voidspren, had she survived long enough. It wasn’t irreversible.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
The spren usually took the form of rolling lightning, moving across surfaces. At the bottom, he formed from lightning into a human shape with odd eyes. … She wasn’t sure why a spren sent by Odium himself would look human.
L: Thank you for hanging that particular lampshade, Sanderson, because we’ve been wondering the same thing.
Buy the Book
The Ruin of Kings
A: IMO, it reveals that the Parsh currently don’t understand that they weren’t always Team Odium; their old songs are truer than they know. Spren from Odium would logically look human—and specifically Shin; I just wonder why more of the native spren don’t look Parsh. Or why we haven’t seen any that do.
…a form of power was what she had always wanted. And she’d achieved one, capturing a spren in the storm within herself. That hadn’t been one of Ulim’s species, of course—lesser spren were used for changing forms. She could occasionally feel the pulsing, deep within, of the one she’d bonded.
L: Lesser Voidpsren… interesting. If they follow the same rules as regular spren, I wonder what sorts of beliefs or ideas they embody?
A: I read this as the lesser natural spren, though I don’t really have anything to back that up. Words of Radiance tells us that a Listener who bonded with a creationspren would gain artform. Maybe passionspren are needed to develop mateform? I haven’t worked at it very hard to figure out which spren would give them nimbleform, or workform, or warform. According to that theory, though, I still have no idea if the spren who can give them the forms of power are natural Rosharan spren, or if they are imports from Braize or someplace and really are Voidspren. They were obviously available on Roshar before the Everstorm, but I don’t know what that proves.
“Do you know how to lead armies, Venli? True armies? Supply troops across a battlefront that spans hundreds of miles? Do you have memories and experiences that span eons?”
She glared at him.
“Our leaders,” Ulim said, “know exactly what they’re doing. Them I obey.”
L: I don’t know about that whole “know exactly what they’re doing” bit. They freed the parshmen, then left them to meander across a harsh country alone, with no information (such as Kaladin gave) on how to survive. That’s not good leadership.
A: And as we’ll discover later, many of them are completely mad. I suppose at this point, Ulim either doesn’t know or doesn’t care about that; he’s more interested in making Venli & Co. follow the orders he’s received from the coherent leaders.
“But I am the one who escaped, the spren of redemption. I don’t have to listen to you.”
L: Spren of redemption, eh? And “escaped…” escaped from who, or what?
A: Escaped from Braize, I’ve always assumed, since that’s where they were supposed to be trapped until the Heralds gave in to the torture. If that’s the case, though, how did he escape before Taln broke?
She turned to go, but paused as she saw something. What was that small spren that had crept out from beneath Eshonai’s corpse? It looked like a small ball of white fire; it gave off little rings of light and trailed a streak behind it. Like a comet.
L: So many theories as to what this little guy is. A Radiant spren that Eshonai had begun bonding? A Voidspren of some sort? Or even Eshonai’s spirit, perhaps? Personally I hold to the first theory.
A: We’ll end up talking about this a lot more in later Interludes, but I think it’s pretty clear that this spren had been in the process of forming a bond with Eshonai before she accepted the stormform. One prevalent theory is that this is a Lightspren, the one they call Reachers in Shadesmar, though Brandon won’t confirm it.
Quality Quotations
Old Navani Kholin, in Alethkar, had somehow cracked the Dawnchant.
A: This just killed me, and shows just how young—or younger than me!—Ellista is. “Old Navani Kholin”? I mean… really? She’s only fifty-something.
Decorum seemed a vain thing to her now, lost upon the sea that was her need to feel Sterling’s touch. She rushed to him, and upon his arm pressed her ensleeved hand, which she then lifted to caress his sturdy jaw.
L: So, I’ve always held that Sanderson’s one biggest flaw is romance. This is most obvious in Mistborn (the chemistry between Vin and Elend is practically non-existent), but he’s definitely been making advancements in this. Keep in mind that I’m not saying he needs to be writing overt sex scenes like GRRM or Stephen King, but there’s way more to a believable romance than sex. This scene in particular, though written almost as satire and in a completely different style, proves that he can do it. If he chooses to. ;)
A: I seem to recall someone accusing him of getting Mary Robinette Kowal to write this for him. He didn’t, of course, but it was funny at the time.
L: I remember asking if she’d helped with it.
A: Maybe that’s what I remember. But it was funny. And that’s just about enough out of us, eh?
Next week we’ll begin Part Two with Chapter 33. While it’s a relatively short chapter, the next one is pretty long, so we’ll just concentrate on that one alone for this week. As always, see you in the comment section!
Alice is so ready to be done traveling for a bit. Too bad she’s not actually done. However, she would like everyone to be aware that the Skyward proofread is complete, and it’s on its way to publication. Also, the Kaladin album physical CDs are almost ready for shipping!
Lyndsey is up to her eyeballs in craziness and can’t come up with anything witty here at the moment. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Maybe Hoid is the one who wrote the books ;)
I’ve not read the article yet. Just want to wish the staff of Tor well. May you all be safe and remain that way.
I’ve recently learned about the steam pipe explosion near your building. I hope no one is injured.
Lisamarie @1 – That would be hilarious.
Deana @2 – Amen! Hoping everyone is safe and life won’t be too horribly disrupted for long.
General announcement – in case you already started reading before I had a chance to fix this, I’ve added a map that shows approximately where the three interludes take place. (Lyndsey did the map several days ago – I just forgot to include it when I uploaded. My bad.)
I definitely didn’t see Eshonai’s death coming. Everyone assumed she survived the fall. Heck, it was one of the reasons why so many people griped about the “fake out” deaths in WoR. Well, she did survive the fall. But to die by drowning? Did not see that coming. I’m not sure how I feel about Venli taking her place…
What the heck is Ulim anyways?
@2 !!! Steam can be nasty, I’m glad there don’t seem to have been any serious injuries this time.
Venli’s redemption arc really worked for me.
I love Ellista’s interlude. I laughed so much when I realized she was just looking for a quiet place to finish reading her romance novel. After WoR, I was really fearing the whole love triangle thing, and this put my fears to rest; this was a book and the author was aware, and I decided to put aside my annoyance and just go along for the fun ride.
@Braid_Tug and Wetlandernw–aw, much appreciated! Everyone on this end is fine–the explosion happened early enough that we were alerted that the office was closed before anybody had gotten there, so everybody’s working remotely until it’s safe to head to the Flatiron again (and happily no one in the area was hurt, from what we’ve read so far.) Thanks so much for thinking of us, though!
There’s certainly nothing wrong with reading romance. More power to Ellista.
Oh, that is so good to hear! When I saw all that steam from the explosion I feared for the worst! So glad everyone is safe!
I have heard the theory that Timbre is Captain Ico’s daughter, who (paraphrasing), “ran off to pursue stupid ideas”
First post on the reread, I am so glad I have finally caught up to be able to participate. What a time to catch up to at the end of the first part. I have thoroughly enjoyed the reread and this series has increased my enjoyment of not only the three Stormlight books but the entire cosmere as well. Keep up the great work Alice and Lyndsey.
Glad everyone is safe and able to work.
Quoting above “She turned to go, but paused as she saw something. What was that small spren that had crept out from beneath Eshonai’s corpse? It looked like a small ball of white fire; it gave off little rings of light and trailed a streak behind it. Like a comet.”
I always read this to be Timbre? Am I misreading this.
Sanderson also seems to like to turn typical mythology on hits head and play with it. Definitely see Robert Jordan influence more. Thoughts?
@11 – I agree. I’m not sure why there’s any speculation there. The spren was Timbre, who Venli later bonded. I believe it was a Willshaper spren (based on a WoB).
My first thought on the strangers from Origin is that they might be trapped and imprisoned old-school Voidbringers, as in, the Surgebinders who broke their world with apocalyptic magics and then spearheaded the invasion of Roshar. The threat that they pose would be entirely different from Odium, in that the latter probably is most interested in killing Cultivation and escaping the system to continue his quest, while they would intend rather to stage a permanent conquest while posing the very real risk of shattering the planet itself (or at least rendering it close to uninhabitable) by their ungoverned and unbridled abuse of their powers. They might even work with the protagonists against Odium, at least for a time, but when their ultimate ambitions are revealed they could well become the new big bad for the Archive.
I know what you meant, but I first read that as saying there was a performance of “The Girl Who Looked Up For Pattern”.
Venli does become a Counselor (in Envoyform), and spends the entire book learning both Wisdom and Care. In fact her last appearance will be counseling the awakened Parshmen and showing both of those attributes.
@7 I’m glad you’re all fine, it sounds like a scary thing.
@3Thanks for the map; I was about to go searching mine to find the places and you-or Lyn had already done it for me!
The Ellista interlude may be my favorite ever. And reading a romance novel, of all things. As long as Sanderson doesn’t do a reverse Jordan and end up writing bodice rippers in the future it’s fine. A good laugh. So much author trolling while still giving the readers helpful information. I *never* yell at characters while I read…
Until Venli’s interlude I was just sure Eshonai was still out there somewhere. How horrible, to survive the fall but then drown in the storm flood! I didn’t like Venli at all in WoR, and I wasn’t that happy for her to be redeemed with Timbre. But better her than Moash.
I actually liked these interludes the first time through. That’s a first; with the others I was so shocked that the main action was broken up that I was just angry on principle. The crazy lighthouse guy and then Ellista made it easier-such random funny people. I hope we see more of them sometime!
So I have nothing to support this other than random crackpot theory, but perhaps the “destroyers” that “carry light in their pockets” and “arrive when the night is darkest” are the Releasers. Their herald is at the chapter heading, they are radiants who use stormlight, and are most known for their destructive capabilities, and arriving when the night is darkest could mean saving instead of dooming. If not the releasers, perhaps the willshapers as one of their surges involve molding matter which could be seen as “destroying”. I have had another crackpot theory that the shardblades that seem to be like waves of water (oathbringer for instance), were actually their blades. This is based on the Reachers being Willshaper spren, and they seeming to be sailors in shadesmar, which is the “infinite sea”. So again, total crack pot with very flimsy support, but would be really cool if I turn out right lol.
Oh! to also add, I do not think the “destroyers” are necessarily of Odium as Puuli is pointed towards the Origin which is the direct from which High Storms come, while the Everstorm travels from the opposite direction. It could be some other evil, but I think it has to do with the radiants personally.
Ulim is such a jerk, I love it. “Ulim rolled his head in an exaggerated way, as if perturbed—and bored—by the chastisement”
I think it is significant for two reasons. First, it is violating known physics (it is a perpetual motion storm that is not affected by entropy, friction, or, most obviously, terrain). So, there is something unknown or unspoken constantly renewing its power Second, since it moves at a constant pace, you don’t need Stormwardens to predict when they will hit.
@16 Scath
Who are the Releasers, and don’t all radiants use stormlight?
My thought is that story/interlude refers directly to the Heralds themselves, especially if the tale is old enough to have been of the Listeners. The Origin is where the Highstorm comes from (possibly a perpendicularity?) and is therefore associated with the Stormfather/Almighty/Kalak.
@18 The Releasers are also known as the Order of Dustbringers. They prefer the former name because they think the latter sounds too close to “Voidbringers,” and didn’t want to be constantly compared to the sworn enemy of the KR.
I’m remember being so frustrated that instead of reading about Eshonai, after all the build up in TWoK and WoR, I’d be stuck with Venli instead.
Of course, I fist pumped like no other in the Avalanche when Timbre hummed to Victory and Venli ended up speaking the Words.
What an arc.
Is it just me, or is Venli’s icon evocative of The Girl Who Looked Up?
The story Puuli’s tells seems to be a distorted memory of the original Voidbringers’ arrival. It’s the ‘sailors lost on an infinite sea’ that does it for me. Or possibly even older. A reference to original space-faring humanity from the time of Adonalsium?
Humans going for Listener gemhearts… Maybe that’s why Rosharan money is marbles. It’s because once upon a time they used Listener gemhearts as currency, and when parshman became a thing they were more valubale as slaves, so spheres as we know them were invented to take their place.
Because it sets up the ending where it’s a surprise it comes early to Thaylen. It’s there as a distraction to let humans make a hugely erroneous assumption so it could be used against them in the final battle of the book.
@16 i Think the Origin is a prpendicularity, since that is where the Highstorm comes from, of maybe a point where each one starts and they are all moving perpendicularity, but the only place you knoit is alwasy gonna return to is “The Origin” So what we know about perpendicularities is that worldhoopers uses then to go to the cognitive qorld and then from there to other worlds, so maybe this profesey is about someone coming from another world
@22 No, whatever the Origin is, it’s NOT a Perpendicularity. The locations of the Perpendicularities are know. One in the Horneater Peaks, which is Culti’s, one in Braize which is Colonel Sander’s (Yes, in my head Odium looks like the KFC guy), and Honor’s, which is a major plot point. Besides, we don’t even have proof that the Origin, whatever it is, exists. Sure, the convention in fantasy is if some legendary thing is talked about as if it exists even if no one has seen it, it’s real, but it would be just like Sanderson to screw with us and make the Origin the Rosharan equivalent of Santa’s house in the North Pole.
Lyndsey: I hate to do this to you, but you have a typo in your quote about the sequel to the romance novel. You quoted the text as follows:
“She is elevated to courtly attention and has to choose between a strapping naval officer, a Thaylen baker, and the King’s Wit.”
While it might be fascinating that the sister had to consider the effections of a Thaylen baker, OB actually says Thaylen banker (my emphasis). I am sure readers of the sequel would get a rise if the sister had to consider a baker as a suitor, I am not sure that a baker is a sufficient enough profession to court a Brightlady.
I wonder how different the “redemption” Listener arc would have been if Brandon had decided that Venli was the one to die and Eshoni was the one to live. I think the end (swearing the First KR Oath; forming a Nahel Bond with Timbre via the Listener’s gem heart; trapping the Voidspren in gemheart but still retains access to the new Rhythms) would have been the same. Eshoni was better suited for Envoyform than Venli. Moreover, Eshoni was more of the archetypical Willshaper described in the book describing the different orders of KR. I wonder if Eshoni’s mind/soul would have fought so much that she would have been rejected by the other Fused/Regals and/or Odium himself.
I find it interesting that in Shadesmar, a spren heads toward the direction of Origins to have a spren “child.” I wonder if something almost the reverse happens in the Origins. Perhaps it is a type of permanent access point to either Shadesmar or the Spiritual Realm or an access point to another planet in the Physical Realm.
I was one of the few who never thought Eshoni was going to live after falling in the chasm. (At least based on comments I read on Tor.com; I did not read theories or predictions on other sites.) True, it appears she survived the fall, but not the Highstorm. But dead is dead.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Storms, I love all of the interludes in this series (except the Szeth-massacre ones) for what they show us of Roshar and its people. I’ve often wished an interlude POV would return and become part of the main book. Sanderson granted my wish a few times, most gloriously with Lift, most sadly-beautifully with Eshonai.
Puuli, just go ahead and pray a Wrecker’s Prayer, why don’t you? (Lyric text here)
I gigglesnorted at the mention of “sleek, fashionable” lighthouses “for rich folks.”
The Rosharan version of a romance novel amused me muchly, though if I lived on Roshar, I would probably have disliked it as much as I dislike romance novels on Earth because I’m a romance Grinch. And yes, it might be the most meta thing Sanderson has written in the Cosmere series complex since the hilariously annotated “Allomancer Jak and the Pits of Eltania” excerpt.
I was annoyed at Ellista for sneaking off to read when others were working, until I learned that she had done her assigned task. But she doesn’t have the audiobook-playing Smartphone and earbuds that allow me to simultaneously read, work, and tune out other people. :-p And it was so heartwarming to see two fans of a book unexpectedly discover their shared interest, as someone for whom such events are rare-but-wonderful outside the internet. I especially liked seeing a man who enjoyed trashy romance novels, not the stereotypical audience for such things.
Actually, I think Sanderson is especially good at writing romances I like. I don’t enjoy all of his pairings, but I enjoy some, which is more than I could say of most authors.
I’m too nearsighted to discern facial expressions, so I kind of envy the Listeners their Rhythms that unambiguously indicate which emotion is behind a speaker’s words.
@24: All else being equal, I would rather marry a baker than a banker (she says while eating a cookie). :-p Hoid as an option might make the choice more difficult, though.
I’ll admit, I am not the greatest fan of the interludes, but this particular set is definitely my favorite one within all three books. I didn’t care much for Pulli, but I absolutely loved Venli and Ellista.
Venli was a delightful twist on readers expectations. Oh, we all knew not all flashback characters wouldn’t all be alive when their book comes around. Somehow, very few readers ever thought Eshonai would be one of those characters. In fact, I do not recall reading many theories suggesting Eshonai might have died after her fall. It was assumed… she survived and oh how were we deceived here. I loved this twist, but I’ll admit I did not believe it. I read the book expecting Eshonai to be alive during the second set of interludes. It wasn’t until Part 3 I finally started to believe she really was dead. So good work here Brandon.
Ellista was delightful. I just loved the satire of the trashy romance novel which embraces the worst cliche of all time: the love triangle. I can here see how Brandon played with his readers going into OB expecting a trashy love triangle: if anything, this interlude was foreshadowing for the real narrative’s love triangle to fall apart before it has time to truly take form. And what of the love square he hinted of for the sequel? Fantastic. Such a clever way to subvert readers most elaborated romance expectations by bluntly showing it would be more apt into another kind of novel. Now, of course, romance never were Brandon’s strongest suit, but here, I felt he did well. This was a really nice chapter and one I was pleased to read. I hope to see Ellista again.
Oh and I was also curious at the existence of Alethi epics…………
I don’t have much to add this week other than an additional bit of appreciation for romance novels as “epics”. Although I suppose in our classic epics there is a good bit of romance.
Puuli’s interlude felt creepy and strange, but I feel like it will be very important long term. I still haven’t forgiven Venli. She will have to change much more to make me like her in future books.
AeronaGreenjoy @25. Wanting a baker over a banker makes perfect sense. The baker brings his/her own dough to the union.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
(Sent from my cell phone)
Wasn’t it in Way of Kings that we learn that the Parshmen don’t allow anyone but their own to touch Parsh corpses? I remember Shen/Rlain being incredibly disturbed when Kaladin start removing the armor from the dead Listeners in Warriorform. And, I’m vaguely remembering Kal (or maybe Navani?) commenting on how little of Parshman anatomy they know).
So, my guess is that Parshmen gemhearts became unable to hold stormlight when they had the ability to take different forms blocked, making them useless to the Alethi and others. Therefore, the knowledge of the Parsh gemhearts disappeared except amongst the Parsh themselves, who worked to make sure it stayed lost.
Classical Chinese fits even better for a written language that is independent of the spoken languages. The characters are pronounced differently in different languages, but their meanings are usually similar.
The stormfather seems to be able to direct highstorms (he uses one to transport Kaladin back to Urithiru), but the everstorm has no spren directing it. That might be why it moves more uniformly. It was generated by the parshendi and just keeps going.
#21, @SCMof2814: “Is it just me, or is Venli’s icon evocative of The Girl Who Looked Up?” It is not just you.
@30, birgit:
It is (as usual with human stuff) more complicated than that. As with Egyptian hieroglyphics, sometimes some people use the Chinese glyphs phonetically, and in fact Japanese people have two separate syllabaries that are derived from the Chinese characters, but from the former pronunciation of them in one specific Chinese language. (Chinese pronunciation has changed dramatically since those times, just to make things more complicated still.)
On another note: Timbre is represented as a disembodied glowing light that flies around and sometimes becomes invisible by moving inside (say) a pouch. She communicates by making musical notes, which we the audience can’t understand but characters “on stage” can.
She’s one of Sanderson’s funnier jokes. Does anyone see what I’m getting at?
@11 Teacherman and @12 Austin
The spren with Eshonai is not Timbre. Timbre is alway described as a small orange pulsing ball, while this is says “It looked like a small ball of white fire; it gave off little rings of light and trailed a streak behind it. Like a comet”. So this is clearly another spren.
Puuli’s interlude was the most confusing part of the book for me. Still have no idea what’s going on here.
@32 – It’s most certainly Timbre. Here is a WoB on the topic of whether that spren was Eshonai’s soul. Notice how he calls it Timbre:
@18 RogerPavelle
I think the implication is the Everstorm is being directly controlled by Odium, and perhaps he put it on a deliberate steady course to lull people into complacency because as of the battle of Thayla, if I recall correctly it first accelerated suddenly, and second stayed in place during the battle and only when the battle was well and truly lost, did it move on. So there is definite Shardic intervention regarding its travel in my opinion.
As Inkoro said, the Releasers are their “approved” name for the Dustbringers. As to the comments on perpendicularities here and later, Honor’s moves as per Brandon, so many theorize that that means it is located in the highstorms though it has not been confirmed.
@19 Inkoro
Thank you :)
@21 SCMof2814
Spheres are just gemstones with a dollop of glass surrounding it to make storage uniform, and one side flat so they do not roll. Also if you have a bunch of gemstones in a pouch constantly rubbing against each other, couldn’t the harder gemstones scratch the softer? Hopefully someone more into said pursuit could confirm or deny this.
Lol I just read your points about the Everstorm. Great minds think alike.
@24 AndrewHB
I think the two arcs would have been dramatically different. Eshonai in my opinion wouldn’t need redemption. Her’s would be more the story of a double agent, or prisoner with her concerns more about hiding her disparate feelings that were already there for Eshonai while Venli took much of the book to discover in herself. In fact I wonder if when the fused went to take the bodies, would Eshonai have been discovered right then and there considering Ulim seemed to already know she was resisting at the discovery of her body.
That is very interesting. Could you point me in the direction where it says spren go to the Origin to “reproduce”? I do not recall it, and that is a rather interesting tidbit of info
@29 RogerPavelle
The parshendi had a prohibition to touching their dead at all. The Alethi would notice how the parshendi would even during battle deliberately step over their dead, even if it meant reaching their foe with more difficulty. The implication is it is a desecration of the highest order to touch or move their dead in any fashion. Yep, Shen/Rlain was in tears over it. I do not know how it was initially forgotten, but Brandon has commented onto why it seems to remain forgotten. The gemhearts are fused into a casing sort of like marrow, hidden among the parshendi bones, and they are small. So it is very difficult to tell unless you specifically know what to look for.
@30 Birgit
The stormfather can bring highstorms earlier, or hold them back longer, but that seems to be the extent of his power over them. Kaladin happened to be going in the same direction as the highstorm, so the Stormfather gave some pushes to help him southward, but was still in the same direction it normally travels. The Everstorm conversely seems to be able to be controlled with far more accuracy. There are mentions of lightning bolts and winds being used to damage specific targets. So I feel there is definitely an entity behind it.
Scath @35. I think I did not remember correctly. The dialogue I am referring to was on page 951. Syl says there are places where a spren can go to “have” a child. But the text does not explicitly say the Shadesmar version representation of the Origin is one of those places. Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@36 AndrewHB
No problemo. Even if not confirmed, it would make for an interesting theory. Thanks for clarifying!
For me, Venli has a *ways* to go before I could consider her “redeemed”. Her selfishness, her desire for power, well it ruined just about everything, especially for the “Listeners”, who are mostly gone. She’s in Moash territory for me, so it’ll take quite a trick for me to care about her after what she’s done. I mean, I like having a double agent, and seeing a Listener become a Knight Radiant is cool, but at this point, I don’t care if she survives. In fact, an ultimate sacrifice may be the only thing that could change my mind. It’ll be interesting to see what Brandon does.
@28 Andrew…that pun was bad. Go stand in the corner. ;)
Venli’s chapter is when I yelled at Brandon: “You’re Trolling us!”
Then though – “There goes 100 fan theories.”
Ellista’s Chapter – Loved it so much. I remember thinking he’d talked to Mary Robinette Kowal for advice on it. Why not? They talk all the time on Writing Excuses about writing advice. :-D
Might have talked to the book this chapter as well…
Did appreciate the call outs of the chapter.
@@@@@28, Andrew: Pun – groan… But a good one.
@@@@@ 31, Carl: Yep, she’s the Cosmere’s Tinker Bell. Is there a Windy for her to get jealous over?
Carl @31, risking being WAY off the mark, you don’t happen to be talking about Tinker Bell, are you? :)
I have a feeling that Book 4 will have a lot of Venli’s character arc fleshed out in Eshonai’s flashbacks. In fact, it would be awesome to have Eshonai’s death scene as one of her flashbacks and see if she *directed* Timbre to seek out Venli, if possible. Unlikely, but then, my theories often are.
Roger @29 – IIRC, the Parshendi don’t touch the corpses, and are infuriated if the humans do. Not sure about parshmen slaves; I doubt they had much choice. BUT: your suggestion on gemhearts losing their value is brilliant. It makes complete sense; if they couldn’t hold spren, likely they couldn’t hold stormlight either, and it wouldn’t take many generations before humanity forgot that they ever could. By the time they met the Parshendi 7+ years ago, they’d have had no clue at all. Maybe a few scholars would have read about it, but chances are they’d just think it was a folk tale like everything else.
scath @35 – Mostly the point Sanderson has made about Parshendi gemhearts is that they are really not obvious, so unless you knew there was something worth looking for, you wouldn’t notice it. He also said he’ll get into this more in the next book… :D
iguacufalls @41 – I’m fully expecting that with Eshonai’s flashback sequence, we’ll get a LOT more of Venli’s POV in the main timestream. I can’t wait! I like the idea that Eshonai might have directed Timbre to seek Venli, or at least to find someone else to bond. I’d like to see that.
.Except for the Adolin chapters, the Ellista interlude is my favorite chapter. LOL If I did not know any better, I would say that Brandon is moonlighting as a romance novelist. You know, like Anne Rice who wrote the Interview of the Vampire series under her name and then was writing erotica novels on the side under a different name,
The Ellista interlude is a good comic relief after being so serious in almost all is the chapters including the other two interlude.
Like I said, I thought Timbre/Tink is Sanderson’s second-funniest joke so far. I’m glad someone besides me got it.
People see Venli as unredeemable (or at least unredeemed and unsympathetic), but can tolerate Dalinar the mass murderer? Shallan the patricide? This is a story about people who do terrible things then rise above them or don’t. Vasher started the storming Manywar and murdered his wife in cold blood!
@44 I believe it’s a function of knowing their stories. In Shallan’s case, we’ve found that there were extenuating circumstances involved with her kills. In Dalinar’s, we were introduced to an honorable man as our first impression; makes it hard to turn your back on a guy based on his past.
Venli is a little different in that we are meeting her at the beginning of her journey. She wasn’t honorable from birth like Kaladin or psychologically damaged like Shallan. She wasn’t being punished for her beliefs like Szeth, wasn’t influenced by an Unmade like Dalinar. She’s a woman who was ambitious, seeking greater power than her history said was wise, and ruthless enough to drag her entire tribe down with her despite their wishes. She’ll not win anyone over with her past actions; she’ll have to do it with future services.
To be fair, there are plenty of people who don’t like Shallan despite her issues (or maybe because of them?). There are many who cannot forgive Dalinar’s war crimes no matter the circumstances surrounding them. You’ve seen them on this very thread. I for one would be wary of having Szeth protect anyone whom I value and would not trust myself sending him against anyone I didn’t like. Just saying, character love and/or forgiveness is not nearly as universal as it seems.
@10
It hasn’t been straight up confirmed, but Timbre being Ico’s daughter fits. Timbre mentions that her grandfather bonded a human radiant and died in the recreance. Ico’s father is seen as a deadeye locked up with Maya.
What silly thing I’m wondering is, who has Grandpappy Timbre’s blade on Roshar? Why show him and mention that he would start seeking out the person who bonded him, if not to say that it’s relevant? Eshonai’s blade, maybe? Or Helaran/Kaladin/Amaram’s?
Kafka @46 – How about Oathbringer?
@47
It’s a possibility, but it seems that there is too much significant about Oathbringer to add another layer of Something Important about it.
@48 Kefka
I do not think Oathbringer being associated with Ico’s father would be adding too great a layer. It could potentially provide an additional link to bring Dalinar and Venli together, and try to bridge that gap between humans and listeners. It also would allow that to be developed and not seemly come out of no where. Not saying Dalinar and Venli coming to a compromise would be coming out of no where without oathbringer, but I think it would add depth.
@46-49 – I think that would be a great question for Brandon – “Have we seen the Shardblade for Captain Ico’s father?” Worded that way, it might not get a RAFO, because we wouldn’t be asking specifics.
surpisingly, a search for “Ico” or “Reacher” on Arcanum yields 0 results!
Is it just me or are the charcters in Elista’s novels “based” on his Mistbron characters?
@51 iguacufalls
ironically enough it seems to be because those exact words were not used. the individual asking, referred to them as lightspren. WoB shown below:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9531
@53 scath
Good catch! Still, I’m a little surprised that there aren’t more than just the one question. And nothing about Ico or his daughter or father. Coppermind makes the same link that Timbre is Ico’s daughter here. I’m now VERY interested to know if we’ve seen Ico’s father as a Shardblade onscreen.
@54 iguacufalls
I think you will have more success if you search eshonai, or venli rather than directly Timbre or Ico. Brandon has been dancing around it so there isn’t an explicit confirmation, but in my opinion, a bunch of the information we do have seems to connect pretty solidly which is why so many people assume it to be true. We know from Oathbringer Ico has a father who is a dead eyes, and a daughter who ran off on a foolish pursuit. We know from the WoB that the “lightspren” Reachers are Willshaper spren. We know from Oathbringer Timbre is a radiant spren because Venli can breath in stormlight after reciting the first ideal. We know from Oathbringer that Timbre said her grandfather is a dead eyes, and she avoided bonding with humans because of it. We know because of another WoB, that Venli is the same radiant order that Eshonai would have been had she finished bonding so the spren is the same. And lastly as per WoB, we know TImbre is a spren, not Eshonai’s soul. So all that combined, (unless I am missing something), I think pretty clearly indicates Timbre is a willshaper spren. But it has not be explicitly confirmed.
I personally agree Oathbringer the Blade will be relevant to the future of SA, but I cannot say if it may be Ico’s father or not. At this point in time, there are just no arguments for it except knowing Oathbringer is a dead-Blade from an unknown order and Ico has a father who’s a dead-eye.
Someone did ask Brandon though what it means for dead-eyes to be separated from their wielders such as Ico’s father being imprisoned, if it impacted their ability to be summoned within the physical realm… And well here is the WoB:
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Is there any effect on a Shardblade if the deadeye is really far away from where the Blade is?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Define really.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
The one that’s trapped on the ship. Let’s say they’re taking him to the far side of Shadesmar, but the dude that owns that Blade lives in <inaudible>.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
We will deal with that in the books. There is an effect, but that’s not enough of an effect.
So huh, there is an effect which isn’t really an effect. I have no idea if it can be correlated to Oathbringer or not.
Sorry for the double-posting, but there is a very neat WoB which just came in. It has to do with one of the discussions we had in another thread. I unfortunately do not recall which one, so I will post it here as I think a lot of people will enjoy reading this.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Adolin and his sword that appears to *inaudible* wake up a little bit. Most of the Knights Radiant have some sort of break in their minds *inaudible* problem. Where Adolin appears to be the person in Stormlight that’s most comfortable with himself. Is that going to cause a problem, or is maybe the fact that he, at least in his mind, murdered Sadeas, going to help bring that to fruition or give us a way to *inaudible* something like that?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Let’s, first off, say I’m not going to repeat this one because it’s super spoilery. So let’s try to talk around the spoilers.
In the Stormlight Archive, there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant that certain traumas and/or psychological handicaps are effective in drawing the attention of a spren. I haven’t actually said if that is true or if that’s [just] a tradition of theirs. But there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant. that they have noticed something consistent.
Does that mean that you have to in order to be a Knight Radiant? Well, there is somebody that I would call extremely psychologically well-adjusted, that by the end of the third book is well on the way to Knighthood.
There is something going on there, they are noticing something true. But it might not be as exclusionary as they think it is.
My personal interpretation of this WoB
While the question is about Adolin/Maya, Brandon chose to answer in a more general manner. This isn’t surprising, Adolin’s status related questions have usually fetched RAFO or ambiguous answers: Brandon will certainly not spill the beans on this one, not yet anyway. Hence, I do not think the answer is about Adolin nor did I think it was when I first read it. The answer is about the mechanic of the Radiant bond.
So the questioner wondered if Adolin “not being broken” would bar him from reviving Maya. Brandon’s answer was there is a tradition, among Knights, to believe given traumas or psychological disorders increase your chances of attracting a spren. He made a point of saying this is a belief Knights have within the Stormlight Archive. He made a point of saying he, himself, hasn’t say this is true, it is just something our Knights believe to be true based on what they have observed.
He then proceeds to say it isn’t as exclusionary as they think it is and one “well-adjusted character” is well on his way towards knighthood by the end of book 3.
When I read this, I thought he talked about Lopen. It is said a Knight is only a Knight after the third ideal and hence, Lopen, while having made the first steps is not, technically, a Radiant, yet. He definitely fits the bill of the well-adjusted character.
People on the 17th Shard got ridiculously excited over the WoB and think, because the question was about Adolin, the answer is about Adolin himself. They now think this is a direct confirmation from Brandon that Adolin is on his way towards knighthood. I disagree with this interpretation. Brandon would not give this away nor would he outright say “Adolin is not broken” or “Adolin is broken”. I don’t think he would answer this question directly.
Now, of course, you all know I will squirm at the idea of Adolin being described as a psychologically well-adjusted individual (because I think we have ample clues it isn’t exactly true), but moreover, I never genuinely thought it was him Brandon was referring to. He does however seem to confirm “not being broken” would not bar someone like Adolin from becoming a Radiant.
I hope however he is not inferring he plans for Adolin to revive Maya without given the feeling the character deserves it as opposed to out of pure goodness of heart which would make him appear, IMHO, too perfect.
So thoughts anyone?
I fully agree that the “well-adjusted” person is Lopen. Anything about Adolin’s state of psychological well-being is still speculative.
@57 – I think Brandon is just trying to really watch what he says. He has already said in the past that (paraphrasing) a person needs a crack in their spirit web that a spren could fill. Now, to what degree to relates to someone being “broken,” who knows? But there has to be space for a spren bond.
@56 Gepeto
that is not the entire WoB. Here is the rest:
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
We will deal with that in the books. There is an effect, but that’s not enough of an effect.
Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]
Considering no one says that their Shardblade is acting weird in two and a half thousand years.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
That happens all the time in Shadesmar. If you were able to get it off the planet, it would have an effect.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
If you as the owner of the Shardblade were offworld and you tried to summon it, that would be the effect?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Either way. But you can’t take spren off-world. I mean, you can, but you can’t really. Really all that I have in the notes for it to do right now, is to add slightly more time. So you’re like, “That’s weird that felt like not ten heartbeats, it felt like twelve.”
But it’s like, you’re on another planet, then it’s suddenly speed of light type stuff. So suddenly it’s like, “This is taking three years instead. That’s a pretty big deal!”
So I’ve got a few weird speed of light things mixed into the cosmere, and that’s one of them.
@57 Gepeto
As I said before, I believe too much focus is being put on “brokenness” and “openness” regarding bonding spren. For instance if we were on Scadrial and wanted someone to be a mistborn. We could beat the living crem out of that person to an inch of their life, and if they are not descended from someone with the allomancy gene, or from someone who burned lerasium, they will not be a mistborn. They will be someone beaten very very badly. So I feel a person could be completely open, and exhibit all the ideals of whatever order, but unless the spren of that order want to bond, that person will not become a radiant. I think anytime we wonder why a person is or is not a radiant, we need to look at the spren of that order, and what affect the recreance had on them to find out. So if we are to assume Adolin will be an edgedancer, then we need to look at what the Circle’s motivations are, and what they aim to accomplish as they seem to be the deciding factor on who edgedancer spren get to bond. Wyndle wanted to bond someone else, but was ordered to bond Lift. They nearly ordered Wyndle to bond Ym. So it seems to be they are sending very few, if any to bond, and have a very specific goal in mind regarding who the spren bond. As I also said in the other thread, for all we know, the Circle could be hoping Adolin succeeds in reviving Maya, so are deliberately keeping other spren from bonding him. I am in agreement that I think Brandon might be referring to Lopen. At least that was my first reaction, though I am always open to alternatives.
@58: Yeah, I thought he meant Lopen too, but seriously, the fandom has gone crazy over this one. Reddit, the 17th Shard, most seem to think he meant Adolin because the question was about Adolin. Brandon must be biting his nails on this one, I am expecting a statement to clarify it.
@59: But he is also saying traumas and psychological disorders are not required thought the existing knights believe it is. It is hard to interpret what Brandon really meant here. I think he means to say intense trauma is not required, but one needs to be opened to the bond, in one way or another.
I don’t think he was answering directly to the question about Adolin’s mental state: he always RAFOed this in the past, I can’t see him directly giving it away now, especially not considering he hasn’t even started working on book 4. Brandon is very careful with such spoilers.
@60: Yeah, I know, there was a second part to this WoB, but since it wasn’t super relevant to Oathbringer, I left it out. I thought it could be used to state Oathbringer is not Ico’s father but huh, not a very strong argument just the only one I could think of.
Other alternatives I have heard were: he was referring to Adolin himself, Navani or Skar. I think we can eliminate the last two because nothing in the books indicate it may be the case. Adolin, I think readers are misinterpreting the WoB, the question was about Adolin, but the answer was broader. People tend to not think it is Lopen because he already has a spren, but I think as long as he does not say the Third Oath and he doesn’t gain access to his Blade, he is not technically a Full Radiant, yet.
On the matter of Adolin specifically, Brandon did say there was a tradition for given traumas to attract sprens which is based on a lot of examples, so I would think it is safe to say “intense trauma and psychological disorder” do increase your chances of being “noticed”, but it isn’t a finality in itself. In other words, we can assumed the majority of the Radiants will be mentally ill in one way or another, but non-mentally ill people could also become a Radiant, but attracting a spren would be harder. This is my two cents anyway.
I have to say I’m a bit baffled by people jumping all over the idea that he was talking about Adolin with that “psychologically well-adjusted” thing. I think it must be people seeing what they want to see, because as you say, Brandon has always been vague about what’s going to happen with Adolin & Maya. And IIRC, it was Lopen & Tua that brought out the “you don’t have to be completely traumatized by horrible life experiences to bond a spren” point. It’s a front-and-center example of someone who is content with who he is, and Brandon has used that example multiple times.
That said, I’m betting he’s just going to let them flail with it, and he won’t clarify it until someone asks a better question. :D Given how much he interacts with the reddit community, I suppose it’s possible he’ll clear it up sooner, but I won’t be surprised if he leaves it for a long time, and then casually comments sometime that of course he was talking about Lopen. He loves his fans… but he also loves to watch them hare off along the wrong rabbit trail.
I’m just curious how a well-adjusted person can have the needed cracks in their Spiritweb in order for a bond to take place. I was looking at this WoB and was wondering if these well-adjusted people simply were born with the capacity in their Spiritweb?
@61 Gepeto
Brandon has said how in some WoB he deliberately does not answer, or keeps things vague because he wants to continue to foster discussion and debate. So I could actually see him being quite pleased that the WoB is still questioned.
The reason I posted the rest of the WoB, is that I do feel it is relevant. If someone else (since Amaram is now dead), bonds Oathbringer, and happens to notice a delay in summoning by even one heartbeat, then it could potentially hint of a connection. It is a very far fetched and unlikely occurrence as it relies on the Reachers being practically on the other side of the planet from where the person who bonded the blade is and that person chooses that moment to summon it, as well as that actually being on the other side of the planet being enough of a distance to affect it. Despite the utter far fetchness of that occurring, I will still try to keep an eye out for it in subsequent books :)
The thing about tradition is invariably over a long enough time line they will not work. See Dalinar’s little speech about his belt. Renarin, Venli, and potentially Adolin are all experiencing things that never occurred before. That are entirely unique from the traditional bond. So I feel focusing so much on how it was done before is limiting understanding of how it is being done now. Traditional Radiants bonding, bonded spren prior to the Recreance. Those spren did not have a reason to fear the bond. But now there is a whole host of issues that can affect their choices. Is the rest of their people against it? Would they be “breaking” their laws to do it? Would they want to still bond, but avoid humans? Would they bond with a human if it meant getting revenge? Or getting to learn and experiment? Or worth the risk against a greater threat? As per the quotes and WoB I posted on the other thread, I think “openness” is very loose. Odium by getting Sadeas’s men to feel strong emotions of lust and anger considered them “open” for a bond. Kelsier considered Midge who suffered from mental illness enough to mutter to himself, “open” enough to hear him. We also see that different spren have different feelings regarding dead shardblades. Cryptics are fine with it. Honorspren abhor it. Elhokar was bonding a cryptic while bonded to a shardblade. Kaladin was not bonded to a shard blade while bonding an honorspren and in fact felt revulsion towards the blade. The Stormfather had to be coerced into bonding Dalinar. The visions he gave Dalinar was given because of Tanavast. Every step of the bond had the Stormfather go kicking and screaming lol. Lift did not have a shardblade when bonding Wyndle. Nor did Ym, but Renarin did. Wyndle abhored the dead shardblades, but we already established he was ordered to bond Lift when he did not want to. Perhaps edgedancer spren do not want to bond anyone with a shardblade and would only reconsider if ordered by the Circle, We could say perhaps the Truthwatcher spren are ok with dead shardblades, but Renarin’s is corrupted so perhaps Glys is an outlier. We have not seen any other Truthwatcher spren bond someone with a dead shardblade yet. So we do not have enough data points yet for that. So again the reason for all this is to say Adolin could be open, but of the ideals he exhibits (lets say windrunner, edgedancer, releaser since those are the orders that have been theorized for awhile), honorspren stay away because he has a dead shardblade, edgedancer spren stay away because ordered by the Circle or they don’t like shardblades either, and Release spren stay away because they no longer trust humans because so many of their numbers were wiped out but let one bond Malata for revenge. In that example all those spren could potentially avoid Adolin without having anything to do with his mental state.
@63 Austin
Questioner (paraphrased)
In order to use magic from one world on another world, do they need a bit of [the first world’s] Shard with you?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
It helps a lot. But there are other ways to do it. What’s going on in the Cosmere is people have 3 sets of DNA. They have Physical DNA, Spiritual DNA, and Cognitive DNA. Their Spiritual DNA is what encodes the magic system into them, their Investiture. So if you can find a way to rewrite your Spiritual DNA, you can do all kinds of funky things. That’s what Hemalurgy does. It rips off a piece of someone else’s soul, staples it to yours. So if you went with a Hemalurgic spike to the right place, ripped off a piece of someone’s soul and stapled it to yourself, you could create short circuits that will let you do all kinds of goofy stuff.
Questioner
Is being a Knight Radiant at all genetic? Because you have Jasnah, Dalinar, and Renarin in the same family.
Brandon Sanderson
It is not genetic, however… Um… Families or people close to one another are more likely. It’s not genetic. So for instance, if everyone were adopted it would still have the same prevalence.
Questioner
Okay, fascinating!
Questioner
[interruption hard to hear]
Brandon Sanderson
Well, there are a couple of reasons for that. One is which, attracting the attention of a spren can mean that other spren are paying attention to that area. There are also things in the Cosmere (the shared universe of them) where people are connected spiritually. Um… and that’s part of the magic as well. So… You are more likely to become a Radiant if you know a Radiant.
@64 – Lopen has a Hermalurgic spike? I knew it! :P
@65 Austin
Well it has been confirmed that you could spike the bond out of a radiant and staple it to a person. Only problem is the spren would probably not like that you 1. killed their radiant 2. were ok killing a person just for the bond and 3. forced the spren to bond you against its will. At which point depending on how along the bond is, the spren could decide to end it and leave. But maybe Lopen stole his spren with hemalurgy early enough that the spren doesn’t know any better? Lol
The Lopen would never!… his cousin though….
Why Lopen? Rock is by far more stable, familiar with spren, and also proto-Radiant.
@68 – Well, you could consider that he became “broken” by using that Shardbow. Not sure what that will do to him long-term, but I didn’t get the feeling that he was very well-adjusted at the end there.
@68 RogerPavelle and 69 iguacufalls
Well watching your family get killed in front of you, and then turned into a slave could be considered “breaking”. Wasn’t as per the horneater’s birth order and all that, Rock was related to the people he came down from the mountain with?
@70 scath
Absolutely! Good point. Lopen was the ONLY one from Bridge Four that wasn’t broken (IMHO)
@62: I agree with everything you say Alice. I too was strongly surprised to hear out a majority of readers believing Brandon meant Adolin. When I first read the WoB, without having read the related discussions, I thought he meant Lopen. It is obvious to me any question with respect to Adolin’s psychological state and future will be RAFO: these are big narrative elements and certainly not ones Brandon will spoil in advance, especially not now. I have noticed he was more willing to let small things drop once he has laid out the planning of a given book, but honestly we are not there yet. If Brandon probably does have a general idea of where book 4 is going (and Adolin’s character) he will not want to commit to anything until he starts writing it and even then.
I also agree about the Lopen chapter. Lopen downright says he knew he had to be “broken” to be a Radiant, so he tried to act “broken” to increase his chances to no end. It seemed pretty obvious Brandon means Lopen and I do think this WoB is a case of readers reading what they want into it. I mean, I LOVE Adolin, I want him to revive Maya, but seriously this WoB is definitely not saying this will happen. It isn’t saying it won’t, it is just speaking of how the broken criteria may not be as well-defined as the in-world Radiants believe it is.
@64: My interpretation of the WoB is when Brandon says “Within the Stormlight Archive”, he means “within the present day time”. Lopen’s chapter does hint towards an interpretation having been made, among the current day Radiants, you need to be horribly broken to join their ranks. I did not feel Brandon was referring to a millennia old tradition, just something our current day Radiants believe into. I should also note the Skybreakers do not seem to believe you need those psychological disorders to become one of them, they merely seem to be looking for individuals having the right personality profile, not people with a given trauma, so these leads credence to my interpretation, I think.
I also agree there are reasons for sprens to have stay away from Adolin independently of his mental state. My personal interpretation of Brandon’s new words is having had a strong trauma and/or a mental illness increases your chances of being picked, but it is not a finality in itself. Hence, Adolin’s mental state, while perhaps not being the driving criteria could be why sprens didn’t pay attention to him: they had better candidates around.
Still, Adolin being surrounded by Radiants and knowing deep trauma is not a solid requirement, it remains odd no sprens have given him any attention at all. So I definitely think there is “something else” here we are missing.
@68: Rock’s status is unknown at the end of OB. The only character who “well on its ways towards becoming a Radiant” is Lopen. Teft is now a Radiant. Other characters will probably get there but Lopen is the only one who has made progress towards becoming a full Radiant. Hence, I can’t see who else Brandon could be referring to.
@71 You mean some emotional trauma would “break” but losing an arm wouldn’t?
@72 Gepeto
I think you misunderstood what I was saying if I may be a bit nitpicky. He stated how it was traditionally done. That implies in the past. My point is in the past, spren were not afraid of becoming dead eyes. The Recreance hadn’t happened yet. So a potential knight radiant being open would have mattered more. Now however, in my opinion the Recreance is a huge factor in whether or not certain spren will bond certain people at all. Based on this, I do not think it is odd that Adolin, and all the other many people we see have not bonded spren.
edit: I would also add Ivory telling Jasnah, Pattern telling Shallan, Syl telling Kaladin, all the higher spren in the cognitive realm glaring at the humans, and the honorspren on the boat saying to Shallan, Kaladin, and Adolin all about spren’s anger towards humans from the recreance would be why all of the mentioned characters would have a good idea about why some people aren’t being bonded and thereby not think it odd.
edit 2: to put into context, I believe that Ivory, and Syl bonded humans is what would be viewed as odd in world.
edit 3: ah! thought of another example! So let us pretend the Circle isn’t a thing. Now in Stormlight we have read how lethal Edgedancers can be right? And that can be totally accurate. However, Wyndle does not want to be a sword. He wants to help plants grow. He wanted to bond an old gardener. So Wyndle, a edgedancer spren, would not want to bond with Adolin. Not because of the Circle. Not because of Adolin’s mental state. Not because Adolin is or is not showing the ideals. Not even claiming all edgedancers dislike combat. He would not want to bond with Adolin, because Adolin is a duelist/soldier, and Wyndle would not want to be used as a sword. So it would be an entirely personal preference that Wyndle chose to have after seeing what happened in the past, and the Recreance. But since there is a Circle, they insisted he bond Lift.
@74: I thought the wording of the WoB indicate he meant the in-world characters and not the former Knight Radiants from before the Recreance. This is reinforce by Lopen thinking he needs to be more “broken” towards the end of OB. My interpretation is thus Brandon meant the present day Radiants believe their strong traumas are a requirement and perhaps they are, but not as much as they think they are.
On the matter of Adolin and others, well, there may have been other reasons why sprens stayed away from them, it may be anger towards humans is a reason (after all it make Timbre bond a Listener and not a human). Still it remained a narrative aspect I would want to hear Brandon thoughts on.
Boy, readers are really pushing for Brandon having meant Adolin in this WoB… I can’t believe how crunchy this is. A controversy. And I am not the originator! It is not my fault. I have… nothing to do with it. Sweeeeeet :-)
@75 Gepeto
He said among the Knights Radiant, which to me speaks to the organization, not the individuals.
In the Stormlight Archive, there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant that certain traumas and/or psychological handicaps are effective in drawing the attention of a spren. I haven’t actually said if that is true or if that’s [just] a tradition of theirs. But there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant. that they have noticed something consistent.
So again, I think he is referring to in the past, not present.
@76: I don’t think he is referring to the past. He speaks of a tradition among the Knight Radiants within the context of the Stormlight Archive, hence I do think he means the present-day characters. Either way, the WoB says no one needs to be as psychologically damaged as Shallan to be a Knight, just that the Knights themselves believe it is a requirement.
If it were about the past, then the Knights would have noticed their “tradition” doesn’t work out so well, they would have met many counter-examples, but our modern day Radiants haven’t. Every single one of their member is deeply scarred, except Lopen, bu they perhaps haven’t paid a lot of attention to Lopen, yet.
@77 Gepeto
Well there wouldn’t be a tradition of it in the original Mistborn trilogy as there are no mention of the Knights Radiant in that trilogy. so mentioning the Stormlight Archive as the book series doesn’t indicate anything to me regarding timeline.
There was never a reason for the Radiants to think it didn’t work out so well before, because the Recreance hadn’t happened yet. There was no outside limiting factors for the Radiants to say “hey, I am totally damaged, but no spren is bonding me. Hey radiant, can you ask your spren why that is?”. Before the Recreance, the desolations occurring would be ample to provide emotional and mental scarring across the planet which would again lend what he was saying that it was “something they noticed to be consistent”. The consistent would be 1. desolation happens 2. people are horribly killed or traumatized by the death of their loved ones, or enslavement. 3. people start bonding spren. That’s why even the Envisagers acted the way they did. They thought life-threatening experiences would result in bonding a spren. Unfortunately for them that results in the person’s death, but they carried that “tradition” on anyway for quite some time. So again, I feel it is referring to the past.
“Have they just forgotten, or are these gemhearts not all that useful, or what?”
Well, I believe it’s later mentioned that Parshendi gemhearts are cloudy, the color of bone. So most likely they can’t be used for anything productive. Or possibly the actual crystal (inside that bone casing) is so small as to not be worth the bother. You wouldn’t bother hacking apart a dead slave (and possibly upsetting the rest) if you only get a chip out of it.
@78: In between the last Desolation and the Recreance, there were quite a few generations. I do not recall the entire timeline, but the Radiants lasted for a long time before they disbanded. During those years, they did not have recurrent Desolations.
I personally take Brandon’s words as they are: within the Stormlight Archives, there is a belief you need to be severely broken down and/or mentally ill to become a Radiant. The Envisagers perhaps illustrate there used to be such beliefs though we are not seeing it with the only order which did not disband. Hence,whether or not the Knights of the old day believed it is not so much relevant, what I find more relevant is the fact our present day characters do seem to believe it. The Lopen chapter does point out this is a believe, the need to be broken.
What I find is the most important with the WoB is the fact Brandon is saying those traumas are not a requirement though it seems they help to draw the attention of a spren, but they do not work as well as the Radiants would believe they do. He uses one character in OB as the counter-example, the one a lot of readers are currently saying is Adolin.
This WoB created an insane havoc, one I haven’t seen in a very long time. The foregone conclusion most readers seem to be making is Brandon has confirmed Adolin is well on his way towards becoming a Radiant and is psychologically well-adapter and/or comfortable within his skin. Very few readers have noted while the questioned believed those last two statements to be true, Brandon himself has not confirmed it. It is why I am hoping for Brandon to correct the WoB if only to keep some mystery with Adolin’s future arc. Even if the WoB’s most popular interpretation turns out to be wrong, as I believe it is, if Brandon does go with Adolin reviving Maya,, then this will have spilled the beans as far as readers are concerned even if it wasn’t the intended result.
But maybe it will;be as Alice is saying and it will remain as is. I however think letting the readers believe he has confirmed Adolin as a proto-Radiant will not create the kind of expectations he’d want readers to have going into book 4.
@80 Here’s another possiblity. Adolin IS a proto-radiant BUT he is NOT as well-adjusted as he appears. I am NOT sying that is true I am only saying it is a possibility. You mentioned the 17th shard and the discussion there. I would like to briing in some quotes about Adolin that may or may not be relaveant.
@81: The discussion, with respect to the WoB, was whether or not Brandon was referring to Adolin. On the 17th Shard, they are adamantly convinced Brandon meant Adolin: this is being championed by a handful of individuals, with no one to contradict them, and those are the same individuals which are championing it on Reddit. Others are being more mild and do not seem to think Brandon is really referring to Adolin. Either way, the discussion has gone in circles just now: those who firmly believe Adolin is “well on his way towards Knighthood” are saying it can’t be Lopen because Lopen is “already” a Radiant. Talk of Adolin not having said oaths and not having a spren seems not to convince them.
It seems it is as Alice said: some readers jumped on a conclusion they liked and they are sticking with it even if it makes little sense. They are giving it sense, nothing will change their minds. The questioned asked about Adolin, so the answer HAS to be about Adolin.
So huh, could Adolin be a proto-Radiant and not be well psychologically adjusted? I do agree with the text you have posted: Adolin is not as well adjusted as he appears to be. I abundantly talked about this in recent threads. how appearing strong did not mean you always were strong nor that things did not affect you nor that you weren’t broken in your own personal way. Perhaps my personal history makes it easier for me to see it, but I do think the narrative, its wording and its textual is hinting towards this being the right interpretation.
So do I think Adolin can even be this “well adjusted individual”? Nope, I don’t, but I will not convince anyone of this, so I have to go with the other argumentation, the one which highlights how Adolin cannot be “well on his way towards Knighthood”.
So is Adolin currently a proto-Radiant? I think not. I think he will eventually be one but, at the end of OB, he currently is not one. How can we say Adolin is a proto-Knight? Maya is dead and he has said no oaths.So while it is obvious to me something is happening, I also think it is too soon to say what nor how it will end.
@82 there are some on the the 17th shard who have speculated it to be Lopen as well. We get a decent crossover. That being said I ALSO agree that it is too soon to say what will happen with Adolin. For all we know it could be a big red herring and he will go the way of Elkohar.
EDIT: I hope I am wrong about that last one.
About that WoB… I think it’s 100% obvious that he means Lopen (who has just said the second Ideal, which definitely puts him “well on the way” and yet not a full Knight Radiant despite his claim) as the well-adjusted one. Gepeto, I’ll stand back-to-back with you on that one and take on all comers – we’re RIGHT on this! :)
However, I’m a little baffled by the “tradition” aspect of his statement. If you count everyone who’s gone to at least their third Ideal, we have at most nine Knights Radiant – that’s if you include Malata, who’s skeevy at best, and Renarin, who has a corrupted spren. (And of course I don’t count the Skybreakers, who seem to be too stand-offish to be bringing anything to the table with the rest of the emerging KR.) They’re winging it for all they’re worth, and they don’t have enough experience to develop traditions. Nor, for that matter, have they had time to evaluate one another’s mental state to draw conclusions about how that relates to spren bonding. But if he’s not referring to the present-day ones, any “tradition” of past KR is meaningless in the context of the WoB, because the current crop knows virtually nothing practical about their predecessors. The closest I can come to making sense of this is Lopen’s reference to Jasnah’s research, where he says
I suppose we could assume that Jasnah had learned enough in her research to determine that the old KR had figured out that broken people were more likely to form bonds. Or that she was quoting something she didn’t really understand. Or that “crying a lot” was the closest Lopen could come to what he understood her to say.
There are several ways to interpret it if you squish it around a little, but barring that squish, it doesn’t make much sense to say that the Knights Radiant have (present tense) such a tradition. The former ones may have had such a tradition, or the new ones may have an expectation based on limited information. I suppose we’ll just have to each squish it around to our individual liking until such time as he chooses to clarify further.
@79 Aeshdan
So I have included the full WoB below, but the main thing I wanted to quote is this
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324-emerald-city-comic-con-2018/#e9353
So what you’re going to do is, if you break open the bone, you’re going to find this white… it’s not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it’s marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there’s a gemheart in there.
So I take that to mean you have red bone. You break open the red bone, you have a white casing like marrow. In the casing is the gemheart. But others feel the marrow description is specifically of the gemheart. As I have said, I have included the full WoB for you to decide for yourself.
@80 Gepeto
So to make sure we are on the same page. The Recreance refers to the moment in Dalinar’s vision where the Radiants as a whole (except for the skybreakers), broke their oaths killing their spren. So it was not 1. desolation 2. recreance 3. desolation 4. more recreance 5. no more desolation. The order we are lead to believe (or at least I feel has been stated) is actually 1. desolations 2. heralds abandoned Taln and told everyone it is over 3. False desolation 4. no more desolations 5. recreance. So again, it is not like there could have been subsequent generations of traditional radiants to realize the problem. Brandon to me was speaking to the broad tradition passed down among the Knights Radiant. Again going back to Dalinar’s belt. His past two teachers never questioned it because it was never an issue to them. They just did it because it was tradition. When Dalinar came along, it was an issue, and was a problem enough that he tracked down the origin of the tradition. It is then he found out why it was faulty. So till the recreance, the radiants had no reason to believe the tradition was inaccurate. It worked before, it was working at the time, so why question it? Once the Recreance happened, Nale, a herald who is still in contact with the spren would know the truth. That spren are refusing to bond out of response to the mass death of their people. As the skybreakers never broke their oaths, they would not have that same fear, so would continue as before. Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, Dalinar and Lift are all told point blank by their spren about how the rest of the population hates and fears the humans because of what they did. It takes awhile for some of them to specify what exactly the humans did, but the main characters are definitely told. Adolin was there in Shadesmar. He saw how the spren regarded the humans, and was around during the further conversations regarding the spren’s hatred for humans. Kaladin even talks to Notun (i think is his name?) about how the Stormfather is now fine with what Syl did, and Notum still says how the betrayal makes him hesitant. The honorspren are just now tentatively bonding humans once more, and Syl admitted they still don’t like it. So again, the main characters know there is more going on than just being “open”. They are being repeatedly told by their own spren as much.
@84 Wetlandernw
I would also add that another reason why I think Brandon is saying traditionally as in the past is that Brandon has responded in this manner for other topics. For instance when asked about parshendi bonding radiant spren, and when asked about cognitive shadows (two just off the top of my head) Brandon responded with traditionally just like this WoB. I have linked them below.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/192-rfantasy_bookclub-alloy-of-law-qa/#e4141
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/283-brandons-blog-2016/#e7619
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/275-brandons-blog-2008/#e7594
(actually I just searched tradition and found a whole load, I will just post the first three as I do not want my post to be viewed as spam)
@83: Ben, I agree with you. You are right, some have been saying Lopen as well but they were drowned within the bigger louder names which are saying it has to be Adolin. The same is happening on Reddit.
@84: Yes, Alice. I definitely agree with you on this one. There never were any doubts in my mind Brandon meant Lopen when I read the WoB. I was stunned when I read the most popular opinion was to believe he meant Adolin. I am even more stunned to see other readers clamoring Brandon has confirmed Adolin as a Radiant.
And thank you for fishing out the Lopen quote! I have been referring to it many times yesterday, but I never took the time to fish it out. I too immediately made the link in between this quote (which I have just recently re-read) and the WoB. Why? Because it is a snippet which shows what our current crop of Radiants are thinking or, at the very least, the information they are propagating. Lopen know about this “tradition” and knows he doesn’t quite meet this requirement, so he has tried to make himself worthy by “crying a lot”. Now, I never thought I would say this, but I actually really liked Lopen in this chapter. It was one of those I read very quickly through during my first read, but this chapter, I felt, really help flesh out his character and remove a great deal of the annoying layer which had been coating him previously.
Now, I love Lopen as a Radiant and it makes perfect sense Brandon chose him. We had this talk before, how Lopen was chosen because Brandon needed to show it was possible to become a Radiant without the deep trauma of the current protagonists, but in light of this WoB and my personal re-read, I can definitely see what the author was trying to do here and I love it.
For the rest, yeah, I guess we can squish this one both sides of the arguments. My current position remains the same I feel the Lopen quote does illustrate our current day Radiants beliefs: they believe you need to be traumatized or mentally ill to become a Radiant. They believe no sane person can be a Radiant and this alone could also explain why no one wondered about why Adolin was left out of being a Radiant, why no one is telling him “your turn will eventually come”. This has been nagging at me, but if our current crop of Radiants believe someone they view as “normal, perfect and strong” doesn’t meet the base requirement to become a Radiant, then they will not even think he could be one. He just fails the first criteria.
Perhaps it even explain the Shallan quote, late in OB, where she states not being a Radiant is the best thing which ever happened to Adolin. I could never understand why she said such thing. The only explanation I have had is she knows becoming a Radiant means suffering and it is good Adolin is not a Radiant because it means he is not broken or something along those lines.
Either way, the word “tradition” is misleading. It could be as Scath is suggesting too, that Brandon meant old-time Radiants though even if he did, the Lopen quote does indicate the current crop of Radiants believe there is a need to be broken down to become a Radiant.
IMPORTANT EDIT:
OK folks. Here they are, further words from Brandon:
All right. So…things do get confusing whenever I’m trying to circumlocute spoilers. I could have smacked myself for forgetting to mention “no spoilers” before the Q&A. I keep forgetting that there are many readers who are not as sensitive to these things as I am. (Though one woman did gasp in the row behind that guy asking the question–as his original one mentioned Sadeas’s death, I believe.)
I will say that there are multiple people I’d consider well on the path to being Radiants by the end of Book Three, and several of these would–shall we say–dispute KR traditions from the past, specifically on this subject matter. (What makes someone eligible to become a KR.) So this discussion is relevant for multiple reasons.
I wasn’t trying to drop any bombs about Adolin, however, as I remain very solidly in RAFO territory about his future.
See? I knew this would work. So Brandon confirms it: he wasn’t referring to Adolin and Adolin’s future remains totally, completely RAFO territory. He however doesn’t say he means Lopen, he says he could have meant many other characters which would all challenge the general perception of how broken you need to be.
@86 Gepeto
I was going to reply once more about “tradition” but your edit makes it pretty clear that the tradition Brandon referred to was in fact regarding the past:
I will say that there are multiple people I’d consider well on the path to being Radiants by the end of Book Three, and several of these would–shall we say–dispute KR traditions from the past, specifically on this subject matter. (What makes someone eligible to become a KR.) So this discussion is relevant for multiple reasons.
By the way, could you post the link to the WoB for reference?
@85 – Are you sure those are the right links?
@87 Scath
I searched for “circumlocate” and found it pretty quick lol.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e10467
EDIT – found another WOB on the same page that mentions Skar and his proto-Radiantness
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e10419
scath @85 – If you can posit that timeline with certainty, you know more than I do.
We haven’t been given a lot of the history yet. We know there were many, many Desolations. We know there were multiple times when humanity freaked out over the realization that they were the original Voidbringers. We know that the one called The Recreance happened when Honor was Splintering and was therefore unable to help them deal with it, which is a lot of why it was so widespread. We know that the Oathpact was broken at the end of the last “normal” Desolation, and before the False Desolation. We know that the False Desolation occurred before the Recreance (since it was ended by an active Bondsmith) – or at least the False Desolation was over before the Recreance was over. We don’t know that the Recreance was simultaneous across the board. And we certainly don’t know that there were no recreance-like events before the Oathpact was broken.
Gepeto @86 – Well, color me surprised! I really didn’t think he’d clarify that. But I’m glad to see that when he did, he proved us right in that he was not confirming Adolin as being “well on his way” to Radiant.
He said in the past, I guess that is self explanatory
[Late to the party but better than never…]
Re: sailors from the Origin – It’s just a feeling, but maybe this is just another confused in-world history? Who are/were Puuli’s people, exactly? Are we sure they’re the “good guys”? Even if they are, might they see events as “destruction” that are actually just change, even change for the better (good over evil)? “Lost on an infinite sea” and “Light in their pockets” sounds like beings coming from Shadesmar. Arriving “when the night is darkest” just feels like “The Battle of the Pelennor Fields” from tLotR. Some of the other theories here in the comments are interesting too, and I sincerely hope I forget them asap so that I’ll be surprised when we finally find out. :-)
Re: Battar as herald on Venli’s interlude – Counsellor, Wisdom, and Care are how Venli thought of Eshonai, so there’s a connection.
Re: Kelek/Kalak, et al – From tWoK, I thought that it was the Windrunners who were especially tied to the highstorms, not the Bondsmiths and (now) not the Willshapers.
Re: the Dawnchant script – So the Listeners had a written language, prior to the arrival of the humans (and Odium)? And by the time we see them in WoR, they are relying on the oral tradition? This whole thing is so sad; hatred/Odium is so destructive.
Re: Listener gemhearts – What if the uncut gemstones tied in the Parshendi’s beards (that Kaladin leverages at the battle of the Tower) are actually the gemhearts of some long-dead relatives? Re: their aversion to touching dead bodies now — what if that taboo is to keep their enemies (humans) from thinking to do the same, thereby discovering that the potential harvest? What an awful, awful danger. Also, I wonder if the small gemstone that Gavilar made,which we think might hold one of the Unmade and thus need to be very strong, was originally a Listener gemheart?
Re: Everstorm vs highstorms: Perhaps the predictable nature of the Everstorm relates to its artificial/contrived creation, whereas the highstorms are natural events on Roshar: similar to man-made vs. naturally-occurring.
Re: Devotaries – What was Adolin’s Devotary, for his Calling to be Duelling? The whole system seems irregular – like it was set up by a bunch of people who just institutionalized their own hobbies and interests.
Re: Shardplate – Interesting that Ulim, who knows so much about the past, is just theorizing about Plate: he doesn’t really know. Also I wonder: If some of the Shardblades can be revived, what about Plate? What if someone was wearing Plate and during a battle it turned back into just spren. That would be bad for the wearer…
Re: Voidspren – I thought that the spren that give Stormform had escaped from Braise, like immediately when Taln broke, and had been kind of streaming to Roshar between then and the Everstorm (i.e., the time that lapses during WoR).
Re: the “leaders” of the awakened parsh – Did the Fused “free” the parshmen? That doesn’t sound right, but I’m not sure what is.
@31 Carl – Wow! :-)
@42 Wetlandernw – Is SA 4 confirmed to be Eshonai’s flashback book?
@10 iguacufalls & @46 Kefka – I wonder if spren will be less hesitant to join the good guys if/when all the deadeyes begin waking up? That could change the tide of a battle!
Another one for scath @85 – The three links you picked are absolutely terrible examples of his use of “tradition” as related to the point we were discussing. Sorry…
My point about “tradition” among the Radiants is that there’s an extreme knowledge break between the old and the new; nearly all information about the Knights Radiant had been either lost or dramatically altered due to time and the depredations of the Heirocracy. Jasnah and Shallan are literally the only current Radiants who have any idea how the orders functioned in the past, and Shallan’s information all comes from a book of research collected after the Recreance, which the author acknowledges is partially speculative. That’s why I quoted Lopen; the information Jasnah has dug out in her years of research, using non-Vorin-abused sources when she could find them, is the only link to what the old Radiants believed about how the bonds were formed. I think “tradition” is a poor choice of word for Brandon there; that’s really all I’m saying.
Book Four can reasonably have much more solid information, since they’ll have the intervening year to catalog and study the gemstone library for clues, as well as more Radiants (hopefully) coming forward with spren who might be able and willing to provide historical background. At this point, “Radiant tradition” is virtually non-existent.
@87: Yeah, I realize the update implied your interpretation was the right one. I however did not change my other post nor added to my commentaries, but I agree it does seem like your interpretation was the right one.
The source is Reddit.
@90: My little finger told me he would clarify it ;-) While he does love to have his readers squirm on various details of the plot, I figured he wouldn’t have wanted the readers to believe he was confirming Adolin as a Radiant. This was too big to allow to keep on growing.
I feel really smug today :-)
@88 Austin
Those were just the first few off the cuff regarding the use of tradition or historic. I posted more below during my response to Wetlandernw
@89 iguacufalls
Thank you for the link! :)
@90 Wetlandernw
Not really positing a time line. As per your post, we agree on all the pertinent matters. Desolations ended before the Recreance. Whether the breaking of bonds was all at once, or continual, the point is it happened after the desolations ended. The point is that the tradition would not have come into question till the recreance occurred. So I am not sure where the disagreement comes in?
Again, not really sure where the disagreement is occurring? My point was that the original radiants wouldn’t know brokenness wasn’t the only function of the bond, because there wasn’t something limiting it to begin with. Again it goes back to Dalinar’s belt. The first trainer did it out of necessity. The subsequent trainees thought this necesaity applies across the board, more broadly than originally intended. It became a tradition. This tradition was held till it became a problem for Dalinar, who then questioned it and found out the tradition was faulty. The tradition was not wrong. it served its purpose at the time, but it was employed broader than was accurate. So too the tradition of the radiants regarding brokenness. Now would these WoB sound better?
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5638
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/161-words-of-radiance-washington-dc-signing/#e6936
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6629
@Aeshdan (79): according to the story, humans used to hack open Singer corpses to get the gemhearts.
I think I mentioned before, but not all Surgebinders need to be Radiants. Oaths have power, especially in the context of the Shard Honor, but there were definitely Surgebinders among humans before the Radiants came into existence. They were, in fact, specifically organized as a way to control Surgebinders to prevent another world-devastation like the devastation of Ashyn. There’s no reason why “current day” Rosharans have to actually become Radiants to Surgebind (or bind spren).
aggie1 @92 – Good point that Eshonai is characterized in Venli’s thoughts as the wise one and the counselor. I couldn’t buy the association that Venli becomes such, because that’s too far away; the discovery of Eshonai’s body fits. You sold me on it.
Re: Devotaries, I don’t think we’ve ever been told what Adolin’s is. Callings and Devotaries don’t have to line up, though they often do. However, you’re right that they seem to be a systemization of hobbies and interests! There’s a certain logic in it that I suspect has to do with the pervasiveness of their beliefs in their culture; if you really like something, it’s obviously what the Almighty has Called you to, right?
About SA4, it is currently planned to be Eshonai’s book, with SA5 to be Szeth’s. I think it’s pretty solid; Brandon sketched out the contents of all three flashback sequences before he wrote OB, to see how they would best fit the structure of the novels. It’s possible he could still change his mind, but that’s the plan for now.
Gepeto @94 – “I feel really smug today :-)” LOL – Yes, indeed! It’s delightful to have something confirmed so firmly and so quickly. You totally deserve ALL the smug points on this one!
Carl @96 – That one hits my smug mode. :) I used to argue and argue that “Surgebinding” was NOT one and the same thing as “being a Knight Radiant” and I got shouted down a lot. Heh.
Could Puuli’s “destroyers” be from Aimia? Sail around Roshar and they would land on the East coast, in Natanatan.
Brandon had a little more to add. Shown below
I hate to use terms like “perfect” or the like. it’s even difficult to (when not speaking in world) use some of the terminology the KR have used in the past – as we have to reconcile several things.
How do you decide what is a mental illness and what is simply a person’s unique brain chemistry? Usually this comes down to two factors – the person’s own feelings on it and the advice of medical professionals. Even language like “Well-adjusted.” as I used before, is dangerous territory because it’s so subjective. One need look only to the deaf community to find examples of people who challenge an outsider’s perspective of what is a disease and what isn’t.
So I generally prefer to talk about this through the character’s viewpoint, the lens of historical commentary (which is in world, and may not therefore be accurate – but at least offers a perspective,) and the context of the book.
And in that context, I like Adolin being a RAFO. I believe that using the text, there are multiple directions one could go in discussing him.
@97: And there is more! Jack-pot!!!! My family thinks I have gone crazy to jump around like the energizer rabbit all round the house. Too bad I was away taking my kids to the movies to post the follow-up myself: Scath beat me to it.
So, a bit of history for those who haven’t followed the whole debate, but it seems a lot of readers interpreted Brandon’s initial WoB as him confirming Adolin was on his way towards Knighthood. Of course, those commentaries came from readers themselves convinced Adolin is a well-adjusted psychologically normal individual, so they had no qualms to made the WoB be about him.
Considering the shock-wave the WoB had onto the community, Brandon was asked to clarify his own WoB and given the spoiler-y nature of the most popular interpretation, I had a feeling he might have want to clear this one out. Turns out I was right and Brandon himself said the WoB in question did not refer to Adolin, though it could refer to many in-world characters. He considers many characters, by the end of OB, would fit this WoB. So now open-bar to guess who! I’m pretty sure Lopen is one of those and I would add Skar too.
Still, the argument did not die and others were still convinced Brandon meant Adolin or that Adolin is one of those characters. So, Brandon was asked if Adolin would be one of those well-adjusted characters…
Of course, everyone got this was an attempt to try to have Brandon give us a bit of insight as to whether or not Adolin is broken and/or whether or not he would consider Adolin a “normal dude” and/or if the character is as perfect as he seems.
The answer is the one Scath posted at @99.
My personal interpretation
Brandon doesn’t like the word perfect because it is too subjective. He is not a great fan of his own wording too because it too he finds subjective. His opinion is what makes a mental illness and what doesn’t is really treacherous ground and the in-world perspective might differ from the real-world one.
He concludes in saying, ah of course, Adolin is a RAFO, but he believes readers can use the textual we have been given and come up with various discussions and interpretations.
In other words, Adolin can be as broken as readers want him to be, it truly depends on how a given readers analyse the textual at hand. There is more than one answer to this one and he won’t give us more until the next book.
As somebody who doesn’t really follow the fandom outside of here, this has been an interesting glimpse :)
Wetlandernw@97 – so basically it’s like how ‘using the Force (even the light side)’ is not the same as ‘being a Jedi’.
Okay, did no one read the chapter on Puuli and think, “the Seanchan are coming!”
@102, ha, I did.